Sister Vocation Stories Tape 101 Side A - Track 1

Sister Vocation Stories Tape 101 Side A - Track 2

Sister Vocation Stories Tape 101 Side B - Track 1

SISTER TWO - ANONYMOUS

Michael J. Kotarski & Audience: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Michael J. Kotarski: Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

Audience: Pray for us.

Michael J. Kotarski: St. John of the Cross.

Audience: Pray for us.

Michael J. Kotarski: Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity.

Audience: Pray for us.

Michael J. Kotarski: We are now going to say a small prayer to Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

Audience: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Michael J. Kotarski: Amen. We're here at ah the Carmel, we're talking to another Carmel sister here, in Michigan, in the midwest, and close to Grand Rapids. Ada Parnell. Sister do you love God?

Sister Two: I most certainly do above all other things.

Mr. Kotarski: And ah, is that just a natural experience for you?

Sister Two: What do you mean by a natural experience?

Mr. Kotarski: Do you feel very natural falling in love with God. Comfortable with it?

Sister Two: Oh, yes, it's, it's a very driving force of my whole life.

Mr. Kotarski: Is it something that you would recommend to other people?

Sister Two: Absolutely.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, let's talk a little bit about how to fall in love with God, alright. To those who are particularly, we can focus our content on children, and young adults, college students. What are some of the ways that I can use for me to fall in love with God. Draw closer to God. Would you share that with us.

Sister Two: There are many means, but naturally the means that the church provides for us, are those that bring the most grace. When we faithfully participate in the Sunday, go to Sunday Mass, and if we are able to increase our attendance at Mass during the week when we turn to the reading of scriptures. And we're faithful to pray every day. Our morning and our evening prayers. And we give God a very important place in our life and we try to do everything to please Him. Then our soul is drawn towards God and He becomes the most important in our life.

Mr. Kotarski: You're a Discalced Carmelite Nun. You're in a convent here in Ada, Michigan. And you want to tell us now, there's a distinction. There are two classes of nuns that live here. Is that true?

Sister Two: Yes. We have within our Order we have the two classes. We have those sisters that are cloistered, and those sisters that are extern sisters. And the extern sisters, um, their special vocation is to aid the cloistered sisters to be able to more faithfully observe their life to dedication to prayer, by assisting them by answering the phone and the door, and dealing with the guests that come so that the sisters won't have those extra distractions and they can more fully live their life.

Mr. Kotarski: Well now is it fair to say you know, you were here when we had sister, ah ah, another nun, sister here speaking, and ah we were talking. Sorry, we had a momentary lull here, where I had to check our tape. That was my fault, I apologize for that. We were here earlier speaking to the other sister, and she talked about how some of the kids can come by and get their hugs from her and from you, but the distinction is you are the externs. You distribute the love of the interns to the kids that come here. They would all love to be hugged. All the sisters would, but the interns are actually behind the grill. The externs go behind and go both places and you are distributing the goods of Carmel to the public as they come here. Is that true? Is that...

Sister Two: Yes. That's very true. (laughter).

Mr. Kotarski: And you ah, tell us a little bit about ah, how, what drawed you to Carmel?

Sister Two: My...what drew me most importantly to Carmel was the Carmel's deep um spiritual charism of, um...see, I have to think.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, let me ask you this. Were you attracted to prayer at any time in your life?

Sister Two: Yes. That actually was when I began to draw to pray more deeply and more frequently, and to intensify my prayer that my religious vocation um became specific, and I knew that I was drawn to the Carmelite vocation.

Mr. Kotarski: Were there other signs? Was there an awakening interiorly of maybe a desire for God, or the desire to know more about God. A devotion to Mary. Did that start to awaken interiorly either of those two?

Sister Two: Definitely. Especially in regards to devotion to our Blessed Mother. I would say that above all other things was what especially drew me to the Carmelite Order. Being that we're our order is especially dedicated to her, and above all the brown scapular which is our greatest joy and our greatest pride, that that was what drew me above all to want to be a Carmelite.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, tell me about...what is it with the brown scapular that it is your greatest joy and pride. Tell me a little bit about that.

Sister Two: It's our greatest joy because our, it's our Blessed Mother, our Blessed Mother came. She came to St. Simon's (? 100 stalk) when the Order was in a time of great suffering on the verge of perhaps even disappearing, and he came to her and he prayed and begged her to give her assistance. That the Order would persevere. And she appeared and said that this is the sign. I give you this scapular as my sign of my special protection. And that's what makes it so special to us. That it's her, it's her special...it's our sign of her special protection of us and its a daily, continual, unceasing witness of our dedication to her and of her maternal love for us.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, is there a way if I am ah seven, eight, nine years old, or if I am single in the world, is there a way that I can share in that scapular, and the love that it represents of Mary. Is there a way that I can get part of that?

Sister Two: Yes. There certainly is. Um, a special privilege has been granted that the wearing of the brown scapular is also, as many of you may know, has been extended also for the lay people, in the smaller versions that you can get at the religious goods store. And where you can be enrolled in the scapular and become a part of our Carmelite family. And receive the special graces that our Lord wants to distribute through our Blessed Mother.

Mr. Kotarski: And when you say be enrolled to receive those special graces. Could you tell us a little bit about for instance if I'm five, six, seven, eight years old, and I have that scapular on, is Mary trying to make efforts to give me hugs on a daily basis? And would you, if I come and show you my scapular and visit this Carmel would you give me a hug too?

Sister Two: I most certainly would, and I would encourage you always to be faithful to wearing your scapular and never to take it off, and daily whenever you look at it, to kiss it many times and to tell our Blessed Mother how much you love her, and to beg her always to keep you close to her and her son, Jesus.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, we're talking about all the Orders, that you became a Discalced Carmelite, and that's obvious we're here talking. And there are people who may want to approach Jesus and imitating Him. The poor Jesus. There's a poor Jesus, and that's the Franciscan Order, and then we have those who want to imitate Jesus, the preaching Jesus. And there's a Dominican Order for that. We also have the Jesus who is dialoguing with the world, and we have the Jesuits which are a splendid example of that. And then we have the praying Jesus. The Jesus that's praying. That's the Carmelite charism and given, entrusted by the church of the Carmelites, to imitate this praying Jesus. Is this true?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes, it most certainly is. This is our special vocation. The special gift that God wishes to give to the church, and to the world, through our Order. Not through any merit of our own, but through His special choice that He has raised up our Order to be a witness to the world of the one thing that's necessary, which is prayer and that our whole life is to be oriented towards God. And that's why He raised up our Order, to give that witness.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, can you tell those who are listening to this tape, and discerning a vocation. What is it, what is a witness of prayer? What is your life? How is it ordered to prayer and what part of your day, can you go over that, and kind of just take us through a day in the life of your life as you pray, the times that you pray and ah how you make sure that you get your prayer in?

Sister Two: Our whole...speaking of prayer, our whole life is prayer. It cannot just be limited to specific times. We do have time set aside for prayer. We have two hours every day that are set aside just for private, personal, prayer with God. Speaking to Him from our heart. And then we have the different times during the day where we recite the divine office which is the official prayer of the church. Seven times during the day, and we say the rosary together as a community, and other community prayers. But our whole life, our whole life is a prayer, because as we go about our day, and we do our duties, we always try to remember that God is always present to us. And we always try to do everything with love and keeping in His presence, and doing everything just to please Him. And that's what makes, that's how we make our life a prayer.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, how did you love God today, and how did you pray today. Could you tell us a little bit about that, because I seen you just a few minutes ago holding a candle. And I thought you were singing, but was that prayer and you had, you looked pretty happy. But tell me a little bit about that. I thought prayer had to be really difficult.

Sister Two: Prayer doesn't have to be difficult there's no special method or anything that we have to use. God wishes us to speak to Him as we would speak to our closest friend, to our father, to our mother, to tell Him our concerns, and our cares, and our joys. And singing above all is a very beautiful form of prayer, of praise. They say that he that sings prays twice, and God wants our prayer. Our prayer is naturally should be joyful. There is no place in prayer for rigidity and for seriousness because we are coming to speak to God, and to our Blessed Mother and the saints, and that's a joy. That's the greatest joy.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, I was making a reference to you holding a candle. That was when you and your community were singing the Salve Regina together with the priest here in your chapel. Is that true?

Sister Two: Yes. We do this every Saturday. It's a special custom that we have as Carmelites on Saturday, and the day before feast of our Blessed Mother, that our special devotion to our Blessed Mother, that we chant the Salve Regina.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, you finally...a young individual. And I'm thinking about...I'm a student at school, and I'm thinking about God. And I'm either with my friends, or particularly by myself and I'm in the shower and "God I love you. Mary I love you." Is that a good thing? Is that prayer?

Sister Two: It most certainly is, and it's I would say that it's a very, very wonderful, and a very genuine form of prayer because it comes right from the depths of your heart and that's what prayer is supposed to be. It's not a mechanical...it's not supposed to be a mechanical recitation of words that somebody else has written. But it's an overflow of what's in our heart of the love that we have for God.

Mr. Kotarski: Now there are different parts of prayer, and people have different approaches, but it's true that there's a vocal prayer such as the Hail Mary, the Our Father, that's vocal prayer, is that true?

Sister Two: Yes, that is what is defined as vocal prayer, but as our great St. Teresa said, um, there can be no prayer unless vocal prayer is joined with what we call mental prayer. When we do not just simply recite the words, but that we say them from our heart and we put our whole heart and soul into them.

Mr. Kotarski: No, that's interesting. What I hear you say, and I want you to correct me if I am wrong. That we put our heart and soul together into them. Ah, mental prayer. That's a pretty big word for me, and probably, maybe some big words for people out there, but would this be an example of mental prayer? And if you have a better one, give it to me. Ah...I'm thinking of Jesus. I'm thinking of Him in the Garden of Gethsemane, next to that rock. The others have fallen asleep. He's suffering, bleeding, and He's praying and that's my image. And I'm saying "Jesus, I love thee. Jesus I praise thee. Jesus I'm with you. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I love you." Something simple like that and my mind is focused on our Lord. Is that a good prayer? Is that a mental prayer? Is that a fair observation?

Sister Two: It most certainly is. it most certainly is. That's exactly what God wants us to do. To put ourself in His presence. And to come to Him and to tell Him that we love Him, and to bring all our needs to Him, and that most certainly is a perfect form of prayer.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, let's assume for instance that ah, as I, ah I used to be in grade school, and I'm getting a little bit older now, and I'm in junior high. And I've got some brothers and sisters that are in senior high, in high school. And you know, some of them don't even say anything out loud. They simply meditate. And I see they close their eyes, and they say the rosary. And they're meditating on the mysteries of the life of Christ, the life at the home with Mary, Joseph and Jesus. Is that okay? And is that meditative prayer too?

Sister Two: Yes, it most certainly is and that is what prayer is supposed to be. That in our prayer we draw closer, we draw closer to our Lord by...

Mr. Kotarski: Yeah, but when we draw closer to God and then we draw closer to God with our hearts and our minds. And mental prayer can involve, let's talk about mental prayer that involves the mind. It's true that mental prayer can be where I'm thinking about God in that garden. That would be my intellect, and I'm thinking about God. Is that mental prayer?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes.

Mr. Kotarski: And is that can be, and if I think about it a lot that's meditation. I'm meditating, I'm kind of, kind of hovering over that discursive meditation. I'm looking at Jesus. I'm looking at the others that are asleep. And I'm gazing at this thing and I'm hovering over there, and I'm kind of like a little ah...hovering over the area just as if I'm taking it all in. That type of meditative thing, that's a good prayer? That's a prayer?

Sister Two: That would be...I guess I would have to clarify. That would be the beginning. That would be the source for your prayer. In order, that would be what would be called the initial stages of your prayer. After you've begun to think about our Lord and to reflect on all He suffered for us. Then the mental prayer the part that is the main part of prayer is then to speak to our Lord about what you reflect upon and how it's touched your heart.

Mr. Kotarski: What if I look at Him, and I begin. When you talk about the heart, let's move into the heart. And as I go to church with Mommy and Daddy, and I look at that, and I can see myself, and I can see Jesus there. And I put myself in that picture and I think about it. But all of a sudden I start to have feelings about that, and I think about the feelings. And I think about how I become affective into that. And I think that I'd like to comfort Jesus. I'd like to maybe spend five or ten minutes with Him and I start to feel more about Him. And I just think about it but I get into the level of the level of the heart. My heart feels sorrow for Jesus suffering. Is that a movement of prayer too?

Sister Two: Yes, it most certainly is. I would say, it's a more genuine, and a more, it's a deeper movement of prayer, because it's drawing you closer into a more intimate relationship with our Lord.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, what I hear you...I've been in the Boy Scouts and also some of you girls out there have been in the Girl Scouts, and you remember how sticks are being rubbed together to create friction, and the friction creates heat, and the heat creates fire. What I hear you say, did John of the Cross talk about something like this as far as wood and fire, and anything. Could you share some thoughts on that because in the beginning we have a little bit of that, and ah, ah, and I think me thinking about these two sticks coming together. God and my soul, that's in my mind. But then it starts to create a little heat, that's in my heart. Could you comment a little bit on that? Do you have anything to add to that? And as John of the Cross, I think what I wanted to go into, John of the Cross had that log that was wet and as I draw closer to God, the log kind of dries out and catches fire. Is it possible even if I'm in sixth, seventh, eighth grade, ah, is it possible that I can catch fire for God?

Sister Two: Yes. It most certainly is. But it's naturally the closer that you wish to draw closer to God, and that you allow Him to draw you closer to Him. He begins to take over and to...

Mr. Kotarski: He begins to become appropriate and consume, and like a sponge He will grab me. Do you think something like that could happen?

Sister Two: Yes. If you are willing and you wish to draw closer to our Lord, and you open your soul more to Him. Then He will draw closer to you.

Mr. Kotarski: And it's okay, for me to try to be even if I'm not an adult. I'm a young adult, or I'm in sixth, seventh or eighth grade, or I'm five, six, seven, eight years old. It's okay for me to try to draw closer to God with these types of loves, with this type of feeling?

Sister Two: It most certainly is, and that's what God wants from us. That's what our Lord came to teach us when He came upon earth as a man. That our, our life as a faith is not just to be a life of following rules and following laws, but it's supposed to be a life, a life with spirit. Life lived with, living our faith and what we believe in God in truth. And when we draw close to God in prayer and we orient our life more towards Him then we are more faithfully fulfilling what He wants us to do.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, as I, as I do my prayer, I sometimes look at a picture and some of my favorite pictures are to look at Jesus crucified or look at a picture of Mary in the house with Joseph. Ah, and I just like gazing at that. Ah, did a...what ah, is that okay in the Carmelites or do they have any thoughts on that? And what did Mother Teresa have to say about that?

Sister Two: What you are asking about is most certainly a very beautiful and more perfect form of prayer, because prayer does not have to be words. God doesn't want us to be rattling off many words to tell Him things that He already knows. Not that He doesn't want to hear us. He tells us to ask, and to seek, and to knock. But when we look at Him, and we love Him. We're doing what He wants us to do. We're putting our...

Mr. Kotarski: Well, let me ask you this. Does God ever go to sleep? I mean, when I get up and I'm scared at night. Everybody else is in the other end of the house and they're asleep. Ah, can I call out for God, and look at that picture, and hold it close to me or does sometimes God sleep?

Sister Two: God doesn't sleep. God is always awake and He's always waiting to hear from us. And just a simple glance at Him or a simple word of love, is all that He wants to receive from us. And it brings the greatest joy to Him.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, when I am scared, can I draw that picture closer to me. Hold the rosary closer to me. Is that okay?

Sister Two: Yes. It most certainly is, because in doing that, that's an exterior way of wanting God to draw closer to you, and as you do that He does indeed draw closer to you.

Mr. Kotarski: Now. About your life here. It's a life of prayer that you live here. Is that true? You try to, you've picked the Carmelites for a reason that you feel God's calling you this way. And it's a life of prayer. Is that true?

Sister Two: Yes, it most certainly is true. Our life is dedicated to prayer. That's our special charism.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, when you say charism. What's that word mean? Is that kind of like what God has trusted...that's the gift that He's given to the Carmelite Order?

Sister Two: Yes. That is exactly what it is.

Mr. Kotarski: And, when we draw closer to God in the Carmelite Order, what time in the morning does your day begin?

Sister Two: We get up at five minutes to five in the morning.

Mr. Kotarski: That's pretty early. How long does your day go?

Sister Two: Generally, we go to bed at about ten thirty or so.

Mr. Kotarski: And are you allowed a nap during that time at all?

Sister Two: We can if we wish. We have an hour in the middle of the day from one to two, where if we wish we can take a little rest.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, as you get up at five o'clock, and you go to bed at ten thirty at night, how much of that day. Can you take us through a day in the life, just kind of explain what your day, a typical day would be like here at the monastery?

Sister Two: Well the typical day especially, for instance if you want to speak of the schedule of the sisters that are in the cloister. Those are the cloistered sisters, when we get up in the morning at five minutes to five. Then we come down into the choir, which is the special section in the chapel reserved for the sisters, and they recite morning prayer which is one of the hours of the divine office. And then afterwards they have an hour of private prayer where they can speak to God personally and in a more intimate way from their heart. And then after this then we have one more small hour of the divine office and then we celebrate Mass. We don't celebrate, I mean we participate in Mass. And then after that we have breakfast, just like everybody else does. And then we go to our various works that we have to do throughout the house. Whatever those might be, in the kitchen, or sewing, or painting, or garden work and then after that then we have another hour of the divine office before we eat our lunch. Then we eat lunch, and then we have an hour of recreation where we talk with each other and um have a nice time, and we do some little work during that time. And then we have the hour where we can take a rest if we need to. Especially in the summertime if we have been working outside, if we've been working outside and it's very hot. And then after that we have, we recite another hour of the divine office and we have about an hour where we can do some spiritual reading. And then after that we have some more work that we do, and then we say evening prayer, another hour of the divine office, and have another hour of private prayer where we can talk to God again just from our hearts.

Mr. Kotarski: Which is about what time is that next hour of private prayer?

Sister Two: That would be at five o'clock in the evening. And after that then we have supper.

Mr. Kotarski: At six.

Sister Two: Yes, at six. After supper we have another hour of recreation and we talk about anything that we want to talk about and we usually have a lot of fun. And after that then we recite the rosary together. We come back and we recite the rosary, and then another hour of the divine office. And then we have some free time for about a half hour forty-five minutes, and then we recite the first hour of the next day of the divine office, which is the office of readings. And after that then generally, we then go to bed unless we have some other things that we need to do, before we go to bed.

Mr. Kotarski: Alright. Well that kind of takes us through the day and lets us know. Ah, you know, when you're talking about the food that you eat. What are some of the kinds of food ah that you would typically eat here. Do you have milk?

Sister Two: Yes, we do. We generally, we have well, we have a very balanced diet. Some people probably think we just fast on bread and water all the time, but we have a very balanced diet. We do naturally for seven months of the year, we eat lighter. We have our monastic fast, where we eat a very small breakfast, and.

Mr. Kotarski: What, what does a small breakfast be...consist of, could you?

Sister Two: Small breakfast would be like a couple pieces of bread and some coffee. And then a very small portion of fruit. A very small portion and then, then we have, then our lunch or what we call dinner is the main meal of the day, where we can take as much as we want from whatever dishes, different dishes that are passed around. And then at supper time we have a very light supper. Maybe just a small amount of soup, and some bread, and a vegetable or...

Mr. Kotarski: Well, what was the dinner tonight? Or earlier today, and if you know, or what was the typical dinner consist of? You know, macaroni and cheese and some tuna fish? Or what would be a dinner that it would consist of?

Sister Two: Well, we always have a very balanced meal. Naturally we always have bread, and then we always have protein. Protein is always a very important part of our life, though we don't eat meat. We supplement that with fish, or cheese, or eggs. And then we always have fruit and vegetables and yes, we do have milk. And um, so we have a very balanced diet.

Mr. Kotarski: And that main meal, you're allowed to have the portions that you feel necessary for your...to keep you going. And if you're hungry you eat more?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes we are free to do so.

Mr. Kotarski: So, Mother's not there pushing people away from the table, away from the food saying "Alright, you've had your three ounces."

Sister Two: No, definitely not. (Laughter).

Mr. Kotarski: Okay. I've experienced them making sure that people are coming up to me when I've been here for different conferences. Have you had enough to eat? Have you had enough to eat? So, you're pretty liberal with the food here.

Sister Two: We're free to take what we want. Naturally, we're not obliged to eat a lot, but we are free to, if we need to, we can take as much as we require.

Mr. Kotarski: And if I were required to have...say if I had allergies and I was thinking about religious life, and I have certain vitamins I have to take. Ah, would Mother prohibit that? Or if I had certain medications...and I'm thinking about a vocation to Carmel, would that would be permissible as far as you know?

Sister Two: Well, it naturally would depend on whatever type of medicines that you need to take. But we do, Mother does watch over our health and we do take vitamins and she does, she does you know make sure that we get the proper nutrients that we need. But if somebody for instance would have a more serious condition, they would have diabetes and need insulation or some other, you know, condition that would be difficult for you to live our type of life, then that may perhaps be something to be considered, that may be difficult and may be, might make it not possible perhaps to live our life. But it's not strictly speaking a definite obstacle.

Mr. Kotarski: So diabetes is not an absolute disqualifyer, and if somebody were considering a Carmelite life, they should discuss it with Mother. And they can attempt to live the life, and try it out. And Mother and them and the Holy Spirit can discern that. That's what I hear you saying? Is that true? Any medical condition is not an absolute disqualifyer. But that's something they can write Mother and they can talk about that privately, isn't that...she's open to discuss that?

Sister Two: Well, that's true, she is. Of course, some conditions naturally it's true that over time they progress and it would become more difficult to live our life. But she's always open to considering the possibilities, so it's not a complete obstacle but naturally good health is something that's always required.

Mr. Kotarski: Alright. Now, what about as you've been here for some time and people are thinking about what life is like, and whatever, I mean. And you live under divine providence to provide food. Is that true? People are giving you food and you know, that's where you get your food at from donations and things?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: And, Mother's never made you eat moldy food or anything like that has she?

Sister Two: (Laughter) No, she's very cautious that we always have good food to eat.

Mr. Kotarski: Alright, and ah, the water here is good. And ah, you're allowed to...it's just common sense as the general rule. Is that fair to say?

Sister Two: Yes. Definitely, we're not, it's a very important that we do naturally take the means to preserve our health so that we can live our life.

Mr. Kotarski: Now. Let me ask you a few questions about the life, and how long does it take when you first come here. Is it like a six month acquaintance. Is it a one year and then what are the years it takes to become fully professed. Can you go through that?

Sister Two: Well, generally when you enter you are what would be considered a postulate, and that time generally is around a year. Generally around a year. It gives you quite a good amount of time for you to get more accustomed to our life and see what our life is about. And if the sisters feel that you seem suited to the life, and that the girl herself feels happy, content, and wishes, feels that this is her vocation. Then she can request then to be able to receive the habit. During that time when she would begin her novitiate. Which generally lasts close to two years. During that time that's in the time when you're learning more about our Carmelite life, and more about spiritual life and it's a time of greater discernment where you're preparing yourself for commitment to make vows. You make your temporary vows then after the two years, and then after that your temporary vows, you still continue, still receiving your training and novitiate and where, you're being prepared then to make your final commitment with your either your perpetual vows, which would be as an extern. Or your solemn vows as a cloistered sister. And the time can vary somewhat but generally it's three years.

Mr. Kotarski: For temporary? Three years for temporaries?

Sister Two: Generally, about three years. But it can be, it can be extended if necessary.

Mr. Kotarski: You mentioned that you're studying during the novitiate and you're studying during these things. Are these classes, would you teach a class to them. Or Mother teaches them. And are they studying the saints?

Sister Two: Well, I wouldn't be teaching myself. We have a sister that's set aside that's called the novice mistress who has been set up with the special um role to instruct the young sisters that come. And yet, it would consist of classes. They do have classes every day, as well as other time when they're free they can ask her questions. And she instructs them to help them to learn what our Carmelite life is about and help them to adjust to it and to um come to understand, and learn our customs. As well as to intensify their understanding of our Catholic faith, which is so very important. Because if you don't understand our Catholic faith, in order to live our vocation, it's a great difficulty. Naturally it's a great difficulty.

Mr. Kotarski: As you've come to know more and more about Carmelite life and the Carmelite Order, are their some Carmelite saints that ah stand out, that ah Mother, you and the other sisters ah promote devotion to, and promote knowledge of?

Sister Two: Yes, certainly. Most importantly we our two holy parents. St. Teresa of Jesus and St. John of the Cross. They are naturally our two great models of how to live the Carmelite life. And so we turn to them above all to learn how to live our life, and um, naturally as well, St. Therese who is so very familiar to so many people. She as well is a living example of our life as all our saints are. Elizabeth of the Trinity, and Theresa of the Andes as some of you may know. She's becoming more well known who is down in Chile as well.

Mr. Kotarski: Do you recall what ah Therese, the Little Flower, that's Therese of Lisieux?

Sister Two: Yes. That's Therese Lisieux.

Mr. Kotarski: And Teresa of the Andes, she was down in South America.

Sister Two: Yes, yes she was in Chile.

Mr. Kotarski: And we have big Teresa. Teresa of Jesus or Teresa of Avila, we call her of Avila.

Sister Two: Yes. She's the same. That's the same one.

Mr. Kotarski: And Elizabeth of the Trinity?

Sister Two: Yes. She was from Dijon, France.

Mr. Kotarski: And then we have John of the Cross.

Sister Two: Yes, John of the Cross.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, I know we're supposed to be detached and not have favorites, but do you want to mention any of those, their teachings or whatever and comments and tell us a little bit about what that saints message was. Or John of the Cross, you and I were talking a little bit before this tape about John of the Cross. We talked about Teresa of Avila, and I've heard generally that John of the Cross, talks about union with God, and is known for his idea that about the not a doctrine, and the journey to God is in a path.

Teresa of Avila, talks about the journey of God being through mansions. What is, what are one or two of the favorite saints that you have?

Sister Two: Well, my two, my two favorite saints are naturally, St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

Mr. Kotarski: And why is that so?

Sister Two: Because they are the two great saints that God has raised up in the church. Both are doctors of the church to show us a truly authentic way to draw closer to God in prayer and to arrive at sanctity. Not that all the saints are not examples of that for us. But they were especially raised up to show us the authentic way to pray, and to draw close to God through prayer.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, you mentioned a doctor of the church. Being a doctor of the church is being...it's the church kind of holding that saint up to say "Look, this saint's doctrine is good enough for everyone. It's not going to hurt anybody so it goes beyond Carmel to the entire church being held up that this doctrine stands out a little bit, the teaching stands out a little bit. It's good for everybody, and that would include children, and parents that are home, that are Catholics, but they might not be Carmelites, isn't that true?

Sister Two: Yes, yes that's definitely true.

Nr. Kotarski: Now, what is it about Teresa that really attracts you to her. What part of Teresa are you attracted to? And what have you found, what has she brought, how has she brought you closer to Christ?

Sister Two: I think the most beautiful thing that she has to offer to us is to show us that in order to be holy, in order to draw close to God in prayer, that we only have to live our life very naturally. We don't have to be anyone different than who we are. Just to be very simple, and that we don't have to have any special strict means in order to pray to Him. That we only have to come to Him and speak to Him from our heart as our Loving Father. And I think that is the most important thing that she has to offer. The message that she offers to us.

Mr. Kotarski: So, I hear a couple things. One about the ordinary path to God, and if I am having some pains some sorrow over a loss. If I am having any type of fears, I can just say to God "God I'm afraid of the dark." And that's a prayer and "God, come and help me." That's Teresa's message.

Sister Two: Yes, very much so.

Mr. Kotarski: "And I've lost a loved one, a parent, a brother. God, I'm in pain, I don't understand this I'm angry. Love me, come be with me."

Sister Two: Yes, that's very much the way of St. Teresa.

Mr. Kotarski: Which one of those saints fell off an ox cart and said to God "Listen, you know, I am falling off. I'm working hard for you and I've fallen down in the mud. And I don't understand it. I love you, I'm your friend, I now know why God, you have so few friends, if you treat them like this."

Sister Two: That is definitely, St. Teresa of Avila.

Mr. Kotarski: That Spanish blood flowed hot there, huh?

Sister Two: Yes.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, we were talking about some other things, and we were talking about drawing closer to God. And she was on the ordinary way, and you can have an ordinary relationship. Related to that, if I'm thinking about coming to Carmel and I'm not having any mystical phenomenon, I'm not levitating. I'm not bi-locating. Does Mother here ever punish you if you haven't levitated during the month?

Sister Two: (Laughter) Definitely not.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, you don't have to bi-locate?

Sister Two: No. (Laughter)

Mr. Kotarski: Well I can't, that's not a requirement? I just wanted to clear that up.

Sister Two: No.

Mr. Kotarski: And, for those who don't know what we're talking about. The ordinary way we talk about, and John of the Cross mentions this. About the...and I want to ask you if you'd agree with this about the, and I want to ask you if you would agree with this. A little bit about naming the Syrian. Naming the Syrian in the Bible went to see the holy prophet Elijah. And Elijah, and he said he has leprosy which is a very terrible disease. And it was a disease not unlike sin, that can affect our heart. It was a disease on the body, and the holy man Elijah said "Go wash in the river over here, (which was the River Jordan). Wash seven times." and this holy man Namon, this powerful man named Namon said "I'm not going to it." What took place there do you recall that? Why don't you tell us a little bit about that.

Sister Two: What exactly are you...

Mr. Kotarski: Well, what did Elijah want Namon to do? He wanted Namon to wash seven times in there, to do the ordinary thing, and his...do you want to complete that story?

Sister Two: (Sigh).

Mr. Kotarski: Then the man who was working for Namon said "Master, if this holy man would have wanted you to do something extraordinary you'd have done it? And he said "Yes." "How much more than you would do the ordinary?" Wasn't that something that was a favorite quote for Teresa and John of the Cross?

Sister Two: Yes, yes, it certainly was.

Mr. Kotarski: And so, as I draw closer to God. As I want to fall in love with God. They mystical phenomenon, doing special things, are not necessary. I can be just doing the normal thing in the church and that is going to be sufficient. There is no requirement to have any special, extraordinary graces. Which are real, and the church has. Is that true?

Sister Two: Yes. That's very much true because um extraordinary graces is not a sign of holiness. Naturally God does grant these graces to some people but they're not always a sign that somebody has a (? 531 Tangurey sp?) holiness, or that someone has arrived at a very high spiritual peak. Because God can grant these graces to anybody. He can give visions to anybody if He chooses. But that's not what, but they are not what's important. That's not how we gauge a truly advanced and deep spiritual life.

Mr. Kotarski: I should say to our listeners too. It's here, six-thirty at night. Sister's been working all day long on multiple things, and we're grabbing her time here for an interview. And it reminds me of the special sayings that John of the Cross where he attributes, I think it's number thirteen in his sayings of perfection about suffering for God is better than working miracles. Do you recall that too?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes.

Mr. Kotarski: And although you're not suffering, you work hard and if you love and obey your parents, and get good grades at school. And follow a prayer life. Things will work out.

Sister Two: Yes, and the main reason being is because you are doing God's will, and that's what is the most important. And that's what holiness is, is doing God's will. We don't have to do anything special. We just have to do what God gives us to do, what His will is for us to do as perfectly as possible, and that is especially the special message that St. Terese came to give us.

Mr. Kotarski: I want to thank you very much. And now, if I'm in the area and I want to come by and visit, and see you, and ask you some questions about life in Carmel. Or if I want to come by and get one of those hugs, I'm a seven or eight year old. And you said about God hugs, and Mary hugs and you'll hug for them. Where do I come at to see you? What's the address?

Sister Two: Our address is 4300 Mount Carmel Drive, Northeast, and we are in Parnell, Michigan which is outside of Ada. Ada you have to put for our post office for the address. And then our zip code is 49301.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, do you know what dinner is going to be tonight? Do you have any idea or are we going to be surprised?

Sister Two: I don't have any idea yet. (Laughter)

Mr. Kotarski: You trust them?

Sister Two: I certainly do.

Mr. Kotarski: I do too. Now, I noticed that ah, ah about recollection in God. Have you ever heard that term before?

Sister Two: Certainly. That's the fundamental aspect of our life.

Mr. Kotarski: And, that's life in Carmel and a good Catholic life oriented towards God. Tell us a little bit about recollection of God (? 555 inaudible).

Sister Two: Recollection is um I guess you would say the simple definition of it is being mindful of God's presence. Always being aware that He's near us, and that we order our whole life towards Him. While we do our actions we're always conscious that He's present and that we want to do everything to please Him.

Mr. Kotarski: Now, can I do that and still smile? I noticed that the Sisters here are...are seem to be oriented towards God but they're always smiling and happy. I don't see any frowns. And I was, kind of thought that you had to be with your eyes down on the ground, somber face and that was recollection. Could you tell me a little bit about that?

Side 2 Sister Anonymous

Sister Two: Somberness isn't...not an essential quality at all (Laughter) for recollection. Actually the close, when we are mindful of God's presence the closer that we draw near to Him, actually it brings a joy, it brings a true joy and God doesn't want us to be sour faced.

Mr. Kotarski: And ah is that true with the community here? That the...the it appears that most of the people I've come in contact with are smiling, that are happy. But there's bars on these windows. Is there anybody back there that's being held by Mother against their will?

Sister Two: Absolutely not. (Laughter)

Mr. Kotarski: Those bars are not there to hold them back in and she's there keeping people in and she's the only one with the key?

Sister Two: No, the bars are actually, as we kind of joke among ourselves. Because our life is so beautiful, it's so joyful, um that we laugh among ourselves and we say if everyone, the people on the outside were to truly understand the joy of our life, that they would want to come in and to join us so we have the bars, and we have the wall to keep the people, the people from coming in.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, I can understand it.

Sister Two: Not that we don't want to see the people, but ah, the bars are there most importantly as a reminder, not only to ourselves, well especially to ourselves, of the separation between earth and heaven.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, that's a beautiful imagery there but it's a big building, and I imagine it is limited in size. But there are those who may feel the call and there's a few openings left, but you better get them quick, because they're going fast. But if they do they can call and write to Mother. Again, that address.

Sister Two: 4300 Mount Carmel Drive, N.E., Ada, (Parnell), MI 49301.

Mr. Kotarski: And if there's no room here, there are other Carmels. I think there's a Carmel in Green Bay, there's a Carmel in Detroit. There's a few others in Michigan, and in the Midwest and Mother would know how to direct those souls to different places. Is that true?

Sister Two: That is true, but we...although generally according to our constitutions we have a limited number. Normally our communities do not exceed twenty one we do have a special permission to receive more, because we've always been a large community and we need many, open many new monasteries in different parts of the country. And so there's no restriction. And someone that feels called to our life, and who truly has a vocation, is most welcome.

Mr. Kotarski: And Mother can, they can deal with that, and talk to Mother about that, and they'll work that out together. Is that true?

Sister Two: Yes. Definitely.

Mr. Kotarski: Alright, well listen. Is there something that you have to tell the people who are listening to this tape about what keeps you here? What drawed you here, and what continues to keep you here?

Sister Two: My desire for union with God that was what greatly drew me towards Carmel. The special charism, Carmel's special charism of prayer. As well as my desire, the special vocation that God has given me as a contemplative religious to pray for the needs of the church and the world. That's the most, that is our vocation, that's why we're here to sustain those that are out in the world in the church, like the priests and the missionaries to bring the message of the gospel to peoples in the parish and other areas of the world. And also to pray for those who do not have our Catholic faith, and those who are leading lives of sin, and who are far away from God. We're here to pray for them. To ah beg for God's graces for them, so that they can come to know Him, and to serve Him, and to love Him.

Mr. Kotarski: Look, you know, as I hear you said, it's very beautiful. And I do believe and I think that it's true. You, there are children who have lost their parents. The mother has died, or a father has died. You are praying for the children. You're praying for Mom and Dad too, aren't you?

Sister Two: Yes. Yes, and that's our great joy. That is our great joy. Because we're here for that purpose. To pray for everyone, and that we draw them all into our heart and then we offer them to God with all of their needs, begging Him to assist them in all their necessities.

Mr. Kotarski: And for those who have left the Catholic faith and have questions. For those souls that are lost and have gone beyond where they ever thought that they'd be at, and they awaken to this terrible, terrible black hole. Those who are suffering from depression. You women...these people are in your thoughts and prayers daily too, is that not true?

Sister Two: Yes. We bring all of these, with all of their sufferings and all of their sorrows to us, with us, when we come to God in prayer. Their sorrows are our sorrows because we're here because we want everyone to know God and to love God. And do when others are far from Him it hurts us as well. And so we bring them to God in prayer that He will draw them to Him.

Mr. Kotarski: And that's the world over isn't it? I mean throughout the world there is a missionary aspect to the contemplative life?

Sister Two: Well, very much so. Our life is very much missionary and apostolic, even though we never leave our monasteries.

Mr. Kotarski: And this love for God, this love for God. If I'm a soul, and I feel I'm too dirty to approach the sacraments. Too dirty to come to God. There's nothing that God can't reconcile unto Himself. Is that not true?

Sister Two: That is definitely, that is absolutely true and that's what God wants us to do. He's always there, always drawing us towards Him. Always offering us His friendship and His love. All we have to do is to come to Him. Bring all of our sins and our miseries to Him. And we ask His forgiveness...He receives us back and forgives everything.

Mr. Kotarski: And if I am one of those terrible sinners, and I have come back to God, and now I am believing that God may be calling me to a vocation, but I don't trust it because of my past. Isn't it something that I should bring to Mother, and there is no obstacle that is too large for God not to overcome and reach, and still draw those souls, no matter what the past. No matter what the difficulty. Come and approach Mother. Do you find Mother approachable on all those things?

Sister Two: Mother is very much approachable about that because if someone truly has a vocation, and they're very sincere. For instance if they had a past life where you were not very close to God, and maybe perhaps with even very serious sins. That's not an obstacle to a religious vocation. If someone has had a sincere conversion and truly wants to dedicate their life to God. There's always a place for someone like that in a religious vocation.

Mr. Kotarski: And in fact the church history without a little, with little effort, you can find that that's throughout the church history. Saints have arisen from that great fallen state. Augustine is one.

Sister Two: Very much so. He is probably one of the greatest models that's held up throughout history.

Mr. Kotarski: So look to God and what are, if I have a growing desire for God. If I have a growing devotion for Mary, and a growing hunger for prayer. A deeper prayer life. Are those some of the signs that I may want to consider in discerning a Carmelite, a Discalced Carmelite vocation and consider discussing with Mother?

Sister Two: Very much so. I would definitely encourage you to consider it. And Mother is always open to speak to anybody who feels drawn towards our life. It's important always to be open and if you feel your heart drawn towards our type of vocation for prayer that you remain open, and anyone is always open to talk to Mother, and Mother can help you to discern that.

Mr. Kotarski: And if I were to write her, I could be as open on the letter to say "Hi, my name is Sue. I have no college education, or I have lots of college education. My grades were not good. I pray this way. I'm interested in serving God and I have a devotion to Mary. Sometimes, sometimes I wonder about Mary. I have different wonders here. But you know what? I want to have a desire to live a good life. Live a Catholic life. And I'm falling in love with God and I don't understand it. Could I write a letter similar to that? Write to Mother and say will you help me discern what if God is doing in my life?

Sister Two: Yes. You most certainly can, and Mother would be delighted to receive your letter. (Laughter).

Mr. Kotarski: And you're kind of laughing about the joy of it, because that's a very ordinary expression. Human desires, human expressions, human feelings, human experiences has...tends to be certain similarity among certain souls, although there is distinctions. There is that's not something that a soul would be not beyond the pale of reality. Is that true? That yeah, that would be something that could happen? Someone could write a letter like that?

Sister Two: Oh, definitely yes. Mother receives many letters and she's had many young women that come out, they want to visit and to talk to Mother. And um, she's helped, she's always is open to helping them to discern their vocation. Whether they have a vocation to our cloistered Carmelite life, or whether they may be drawn to another type of religious vocation. She is always willing to be here to listen and to help you to discern.

Mr. Kotarski: What if I love children and I like boys, but you know I still think I have a vocation. Is there something wrong with me?

Sister Two: There is nothing wrong with especially loving children. We all love children, all of the sisters love children very much. Just because you love children doesn't mean you have to get married and have children, because our vocation as religious we are spiritual mothers. So all of the people of the world are our children. And um, so that definitely is not an obstacle.

Mr. Kotarski: And in fact ah, Mother can work that through. And actually the vocation comes from God. And Mother has experience in discerning who's being called by God in this area here. And people can come and even have a live in or try this. Isn't there a way to associate with that? Or is there a way they can discuss that with Mother?

Sister Two: Yes, certainly that's why she encourages them to come out and to visit. And that's also why we have the time of formation, before you take your vows, when you enter your apostolate during that time and you're an observer of the life and if you decide it's not for you, you're free to go there's nothing to keep you to stay. We never force anyone to be here if it's not your vocation we don't want you to stay, because we want you to be happy and to do God's will.

Mr. Kotarski: Doing God's will if it's found in marriage, if it's found in priesthood or religious life that is the ultimate, most important thing. Doing the will of god, uniting your will to God. Is that not true?

Sister Two: It most certainly is, because if you try to live a vocation that is not yours. If you try to become, want to become a nun, because you think it's a beautiful vocation, and you think that's the only way you can become a saint when really you should get married and raise children, because that's what God wants you to do. Then you would not be doing God's will and you wouldn't be happy, because only when we do God's will in our life do we have joy.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, I want to thank you sister. Is there anything else that you wanted to add here before we have a closing prayer. And would you be willing to lead us in a small closing prayer? (211 inaudible)

Sister Two: (212 inaudible)

Mr. Kotarski: You don't have a vow of silence, do you?

Sister Two: No. (Laughter).

Mr. Kotarski: It comes in now and then? (Laughter) Just ah all right. Well we're going to go and start our prayer here and maybe a small Our Father.

Sister Two: In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Mr. Kotarski: I want to thank you again, sister. And any of those who are interested in learning more about this life can write Mother. And this is again our ongoing series on formation to the OCDS Spiritual Institute on Formation. It's P.O. Box 1017, Flint, Michigan 48501. May God bless you and keep you all the days of your life. Amen.

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