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This is a Draft Version. Final Revision Will be posted soon!

FR. MICHAEL D. GRIFFIN

HOLY HILL, WISCONSIN

CARMELITE TODAY - SPIRITUAL SERIES

MAY 3, 2001

Mr. Michael Kotarski: We're with Father Michael Griffin at Holy Hill, Wisconsin. This is part of our Carmelite Today - Spiritual Series. Father, would you lead us in a Pater Noster here to begin their tape series?

Fr. Griffin: Alright. Our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

Fr. Griffin & Audience: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Fr. Griffin: Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

Audience: Pray for us.

Fr. Griffin: And St. Teresa of Jesus, and St. John of the Cross.

Audience: Pray for us.

Mr. Kotarski: This is our first tape series, and I'd like to dedicate this to Michael Mannor, one of our presenters and friend of Carmel. Ah, Father, you have several books there before you, and ah these are books that ah you worked on, and authored. Could you go through the titles for me?

Fr. Griffin: Well, the first book I wrote for the Third Order is called Carmelite Spiritual Growth Experiences. And this book came about because I got a letter from some of our Third Order members in Durban, South Africa, and they said that they had nobody to help them in their Third Order life. So that's how I came to write this book. What I did was that I would write out some notes, and ah, I would send (let's see are you okay there?). What I did, ah each month for that group. I never met them. I never got to Durban, South Africa, but they needed some help. So what I did I made a tape. I made a tape every month for them, for a number of months and I would send the notes that went with it. And then each month I would compose another tape and I just imagined that I was like a narrator on television. And I said "It's a beautiful day today in Washington, D.C., today, and I'm sure it's just equally as nice over there in South Africa. Now I know you people are enjoying this nice weather." I mean, I didn't know they would, you just try to be friendly.

Then I would um, tell them that they've received the notes that I sent them, that went with the tape. Then I would explain everything on the tape to them that I had composed in these various notes. As I said, I was an old teacher and that's what I always did. I was always giving hand-outs. Teachers always give hand-outs at a certain time. And so that's what I was doing to these people. I'd compose the notes each month, give them a tape, and then send it to them, and then the next month I would do the same thing. And so, at the end, well this is what we published. It's called Carmelite Spiritual Growth Experiences. I thought this was whatever I was able to do in those days, and for these people.

This happens to be out of print right now, but maybe eventually I can get it back into print for them. Sometimes you just tell people what they're looking for and um, that's what I did in this particular book. Then afterwards I wrote the Commentary On The Rule, and this is when we got new constitutions I think, after the council, and I was trying to bring everything up to date to help them to understand their rule of life. And as I said, being an old teacher, what I did, I used to get around to the Third Orders that I took care of. I used to take care of the Third Order in Washington, D.C. I took care of the one in Baltimore for many years. Used to go up to Loretta, Pennsylvania for some of these things, and even went down to Virginia for some of the Third Order people down there. And I just wrote them a Commentary On The Rules so that they would understand. This is the rule they promised to keep and so that they should understand the promises that they make. And so this is the book that I wrote um...this is way, way back, when, but ah it's still I think covers the main points that they need. I don't know when it went to press. Yeah, the first edition would have been in seventy-nine. That's right, no Spiritual Growth Experience was seventy-nine. And then the Commentary was in eighty-one. So there's something that came out in seventy-nine the...from Rome, and of course I was basically (? 106 inaudible) on that and making sure that these people were up to date. And later, I thought this would be a more complete for an introductory course to people, I came out with this ah...this ah, Welcome to Carmel, and this has gone over ah very, very well. Through the years I've added various chapters here and there ah you know as I saw fit, so they're the ones that I had for the Third Order. And then nineteen ninety-eight. Well, that was one of the latest editions, yes um, well this comes back way, I don't know exactly when. Ummmm, I didn't put in here when the first editions were, the second editions were.

Gentleman: For the record we're looking at the books while Father talks.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, Welcome to Carmelite in eighty-three. Yes, that's ah, it was a couple years after we wrote the Commentary on the Rule. And then the only other book that I thought would be of interest, these were the after communion experiences of St. Teresa. So she calls them these Exclamations of the Soul to God. So, in after communion then sometimes she wrote down her experiences. And people who saw her do this said that she wrote very rapidly, just...just fired away. Never had any notes or anything like that, just whatever, when her heart was inflamed. (? 135 inaudible) inflamed with the love of God and then she would just pour her heart out to God. And that's where we got this book. And I called it Lingering with My Lord. That's the title I gave to it in English. And lingering in English means that ah you're enjoying someone so much you don't want to break off. So sometimes when young people are going together ah, they said they're going to see, he's going to see his girlfriend out tonight, to be able to talk to her about a half hour. But then the half hour goes by and he just can't break off so he goes on and on, and that may go on another hour. Then when he gets home he may call her and they go on for another two hours. Well, that's what lingering is that ah you know that you're enjoying someone's company so much that you just don't want to break off. That's all there is to it. That's all there is to it. So this is what Teresa was doing. Um in these after communion experiences. She's enjoying the company of the Lord so much. I mean His sacramental presence as I said, when Teresa is talking about Christ, it's always, it's always the humanity of Christ.

Mr. Michael J. Kotarski: For the taping use, Teresa. That's Teresa or the Little Flower. Who are you referring to?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, this is the Holy Mother. No, this is the Holy Mother. This is the big Saint Teresa.

Mr. Kotarski: Thank you.

Fr. Griffin: It's the big Saint Teresa, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: I've got to get in close to the mic to pick up here. Are you doing alright Terry? He's our tape master here.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, tape master.

Terry: (? 160 inaudible).

Mr. Kotarski: The big, the big Teresa.

Fr. Griffin: Oh, this is always the big Teresa. Yes, this is the one that um, no she is the foundress of our Order. Really, we should be called Teretian Carmelites.

Mr. Kotarski: Tell me why, why is that so, Father?

Fr. Griffin: Well, because our Lord appeared to her and commanded her to found this branch of the order. So she's the foundress. And, the foundress is the one who has, receives the fullness of the vocation. She had the full understanding of this whole vocation. And as I say that's why she is present, and her statue is present in St. Peters in Rome. As soon as you go in, you go in on the right hand side, you'll see the big holy water fountain, but you look way up there and you'll find that there's where we have the statue of St. Teresa and she's there as a foundress.

Mr. Kotarski: She's there not principally as a doctor of the church but as a foundress?

Fr. Griffin: No, no this is way before. This is...she's been there. She became a doctor in 1970.

Mr. Kotarski: How many times is she a doctor of the church?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, she's only a doctor of the church once. But I say, she also was given a doctorate in letters. She was given an L.L.D. in 1881 by the University of ( Salamonka? 182 inaudible/spelling). That's the greatest university in Spain and she was given that because she is part of the ah, I mean she's so important in the Spanish language. I sat down to dinner once with ah Bishop (? Carado del Rios 186 sp?) He was the (? 187 inaudible) in Washington. Eventually I think he became the Bishop of Puerto Rico, and we were talking about St. Teresa..."Oh Santa Teresa, she is the mother of our language. She is part of our language." Well, that's the Castilian in Spain, ah the ah, this was sort of the capital you might say.

Ah, see before St. Teresa's time, or up until her time, they were under the Moors, so um they that's why Toledo was the capital, and you can see why all this Arabic influence in, ah in...all over the place. But when, when St. Teresa's time, she was being transferred, or the capital was being transferred over to Madrid. It's in St. Teresa's time that this was all happening. And so, when the ah, they were liberated from the Moors then it was officially declared that the language was Castilian. And of course that's where Teresa lived, and that's what she spoke, and that's why she's considered, she the church made here the patroness of the language of the Spanish people. Um, yeah, she's the patroness. St. John of the Cross, he wasn't, he's not the patron of the writers. He is the patron of their religious poets. Now not all poets, not all because we have greater poets than that, but ah he is the one of religious poets. That's what's so important about St. John of the Cross. Ah, but he wasn't the writer that she was.

Mr. Kotarski: And if I understand this correctly, now St. John of the Cross was known as the doctor of mystical love, and if that's so, what was Teresa?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think...

Mr. Kotarski: (? 214 inaudible) put that in a better way?

Fr. Griffin: Yes, but later...um, well they're both writers about mysticism. But ah Teresa I think ah you'll find in that ah, her great charism was that she lived her whole life for the unity, and for the holiness of the church. That's what you find Teresa, it's the unity and the holiness of the church. She's living her whole life, she wanted her sisters and her friars to live for that reason. You'll find that in one of the prefaces that you have in the (? 222 inaudible) of St. Teresa of Avila.

Now St. John of the Cross is a doctor of mysticism, yes. But um again he is much more limited. What he does is he comments on these religious poets, poems that he has. So if you know the poems, and really understand what he's talking about. To understand John of the Cross you'd have to understand those poems. What I mean, truly because that's the way he goes about it. Other things will be very, very helpful. I'm not saying they won't be very, very, helpful, but what he was doing was writing those poems and then later commenting on them in the different books. And so he was working on some of these poems a good deal of his life. He'd keep writing one and he would, you know, the most important of course would be the Spiritual Canticle. That's the greatest of his poems and that's the greatest of his commentaries, but also the Living Flame of Love. That, those two. And he worked on these to the very, very, end of his life.

Mr. Kotarski: We're going to do a separate tape on John of the Cross. We're just, we're getting into Teresa of Avila. We just finished dinner, and you were mentioning some things over dinner that we're going to follow through on here. And so any of our reader's or hearer's we're going to come back to John of the Cross. The doctor, St. Teresa, Tereza of Avila, what did she get her...what is her doctor known for? The church made her a doctor for?

Fr. Griffin: The church...well she was the first woman that's the first thing. She was the first woman that was made a doctor of the church. That was in 1970. Ah 17th. So, after the...before that time we had asked to have Teresa made a doctor of the church, but they, the church didn't do that. They didn't make women doctors of the church. But after the Second Vatican Council, with the teachings of the council, it was Pope Paul the Sixth who insisted that he was going to make two women doctors of the church. One would be St. Teresa of Avila the other would be St. Catherine of Sienna. And uh, so, when he announced that at the International Congress of the Laity, then when our General heard about it, and the Dominican General heard about it their mouth was left wide open. They didn't expect anything like this. This was something that Pope Paul the Sixth decided that according to the council, the Second Vatican Council that he should make some women doctors of the church. So he called in the two generals. Our General and the Dominican General. And he said that whoever got the work done first, um, you know, to make her a doctor that's the one he would do. And so he um, our General, you know well they got working on it, and of course we finished first, and of course that's why Teresa was made a doctor of the church. And it's interesting the first time these two names were linked together were at the funeral of St. Teresa of Avila, in, when she died in Avila. Fr. Domingo Bonyes, a Dominican, got up and preached the sermon, and he mentioned how, you know, the giftedness of St. Teresa and St. Catherine of Sienna. But he said Teresa was far more important. Um...a Dominican said this.

Mr. Kotarski: What was the base, what was the basis for that comment?

Fr. Griffin: Well, Teresa since she was so well known in Spain, and her writings by this time were so very, very, well known. Um, you know comparisons can be made, and um Bonyes, being a Dominican, was able to...because Bonyes was also a confessor of Teresa, he knew her so well. And ah, and that's the reason why he made this comment.

Mr. Kotarski: You'll be alright, we're just watching the tape there.

Fr. Griffin: Huh?

Mr. Kotarski: We're just watching the tape there. That's what we're watching.

Fr. Griffin: Okay, okay, okay, yes. So, ah, that's was the base of the comparison. And then, ah, so we finished the work first, and um, one of our men had to help the Dominicans for St. Catherine of Sienna, because she was a Third Order member.

Mr. Kotarski: Third Order in the sense that the Secular Order is Third Order?

Fr. Griffin: No, it was the Third Order living in convent.

Mr. Kotarski: Okay.

Fr. Griffin: But ah, she wasn't Second Order like the other nuns. The Dominicans also had the Second Order with the cloistered. Um, so, since the, and then of course one of our men he was an Italian, and of course he was a very gifted man, and because he like Terry, like St. Francis of course too, being Italian, so he was able to help out there. And then St. Catherine of Sienna was made a doctor of the church two weeks after St. Teresa of Avila. So, Teresa was the one, was the first one of the women to be made doctor of the church.

Mr. Kotarski: I understand you've done some studies on Teresa of Avila with ah, ah, ah Friar known as Fr. Otillio Rodriguez. Do you know that friar?

Fr. Griffin: Yes, ah Fr. Otillio Rodriguez, he helped Fr. Keiran translate the works of St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. I was a very, very, close friend of Fr. Otillio and um, I was the one that ah, well they asked me to teach him English when he came to this country. And so, we got on very, very, well.

Mr. Kotarski: Where were you living at when you talked...

Fr. Griffin: In Washington, D.C.

Mr. Kotarski: Before he came to Washington, D.C., were you a student of his in Rome at all?

Fr. Griffin: No, no, no, no, no.

Mr. Kotarski: Okay.

Fr. Griffin: I never met him until he came to Washington, D.C. I was a student in Rome. But he'd also going to the College of St. Teresa in Rome, he'd also been a student there before me.

Mr. Kotarski: And you were ah, you picked up what degree in Rome, from what college?

Fr. Griffin: Ah, I just got a bachelor of theology from the Teresianum, which is our international college, dedicated to St. Teresa of Avila. Later I got a M.A. at Catholic U, and um, but it was on the way to a doctoral, you know, degree except that I got sick so eventually I thought my health was better than...take care of that. But it was a break of a lifetime, to have met. Ah, Father will tell you because in meeting him he helped me so much with St. Teresa of Avila. To find a kindred spirit. To find someone who has this spirit, this fire. I never met anyone, never had anyone like this before. This is, this is once in a lifetime that you meet someone like this, and when after we talked, (? 323 inaudible) English. We used to talk for hours about St. Teresa of Avila, and to have someone that really has the fire...I used to tell the students in class don't pray for more knowledge. Pray for fire from above, that's what you need. We need fire, and uh.

Mr. Kotarski: Why is that so? That sounds obvious to you, it's obvious to me, but tell our hearers why.

Fr. Griffin: Well, it's obvious because um it's one thing to know something academically in a dry, sort of a cold, indifferent way. But if you're heart is not in this I mean...when your heart is really in it, oh, well then you're on fire for something. So when you think of some of the doctors of the church preaching. Let's say St. Anthony going out preaching the gospel. Well he's on fire, I mean, there are conversions when someone like that steps onto the stage.

Mr. Kotarski: So the mothers, the fathers, who hear this who are Secular Order members that pick this tape up, they'll never have a chance to have a Phd. What are you telling them? That it's alright to have passion?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, by all means. And ah, in the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, what Teresa of Avila is...it's her name. It's Teresa of Jesus. (? 338 repeated in Spanish ?). And she's Teresa of Jesus in every sense of that word. When you read the autobiography you come away then that she is Teresa of Jesus (emphasized), in every sense of that word. And when she was very young, when she was going to boarding school at ah, under...at our Lady of Grace, after her mother died. Then when she is, she was taught by one sister, that what she should do every night before she went to bed was to think about the ah, about Christ in the garden. And imagine you're keeping Him company. And so, every night she was supposed to bless herself. I do this every night...and you're supposed to think about...and Christ in the garden. What he suffered in His humanity. And not just saying "Oh, well Christ suffered this and He on the cross, well, He suffered tremendous things." And no, that's something else again. And the way Teresa is talking about prayer and about the humanity of Christ. No, she is aware of what the gospels were saying. That it was Christ in His humanity, that was born, and suffered and um died for us.

That is the real Teresian way of going about things. And ah, one of the things Tere...well she mentioned this in chapter twenty-two of the autobiography. She tells us that as she got into some of the higher states of prayer she thought it would maybe it would be best to forget about the humanity and concentrate only on the divinity of Christ. And she said immediately she made progress, but then immediately everything started falling apart. And then she realized it was the worst mistake she ever made in her whole, entire life. She said, "How could I ever had done that, I was so devoted to His humanity all my life. I don't know how I could ever have made a mistake like that." So, it's this humanity and when you think of the church, the various feast days, it's about the humanity of Christ. And I just beg things, it's always Christ in His whole humanity that lived and died for us. So that's what (?368 inaudible) Teresa as I say she's Teresa of Jesus in that sense the He in his humanity, I mean, Christ in His divinity and His humanity is the life of her soul.

Mr. Kotarski: She's in love with God?

Fr. Griffin: She's in love with God, but God came to us through Christ. Yeah, so ah, He is our Redeemer. He is our Savior and this is what ah Teresa. Oh, she understands this so well, and this is the way she relates to Him. And in the autobiography she'll tell how all these different graces that she had felt that ah...

Mr. Kotarski: Can families with their children pray for this fire from on top, to ask for to ask for this passion?

Fr. Griffin: Well, yes they can, but ah they'd have to do this and they'd have to do this as I say. Now, she was told to do this and she did it every night before she went to bed. And ah, she would make the sign of the cross, and then she would imagine Christ suffering in the garden, and like the sister told her, keep Him company. So when you keep someone company, you notice everything, I mean you're aware of everything. That's what that...companionship with Christ. This would be the way Teresa...that's the way you could describe her prayer to Christ. It wasn't just academically, or theoretically thinking about Christ. But it would mean really keeping Him company. That He came down to this world of ours um...to keep us company so He could bring us to heaven. Well, see ah, especially the woman she understood this so well, and ah, sometimes people start. This is where they start getting too big for their britches. They start thinking, we're going to oh this is spiritual, we get more spiritual you don't worry about these (? 391 inaudible). Oh, no, this is not what Teresa did. This was her great charism, being able to communicate this to us. But you'd find the same thing in St. Francis. You'd find the same in St. Bernard. She comes out of that kind of a tradition.

Mr. Kotarski: Teresa's great charism, can you (? 395 inaudible) I'm not certain that I understood that you said "This is her great charism." Can you summarize what you just said when you said "This is her great charism?"

Fr. Griffin: Well, ah, I think of this is her great charism, about ah prayer and teaching prayer to others in the church. That would be also, she received the charism when the Lord appears to her and she tells us about this in Chapters 32 to 36 in the autobiography. Um, that really there you see that she lives um for the holiness and the unity of the church. Ah, what do we need today? We need more and more unity. Not only with other christian denominations, but also within the church. There are so many divisions and contradictions and (? 404 inaudible). No this is where ah, this is where Teresa (? 404 inaudible) too, but she is exemplary in this whole thing.

Mr. Kotarski: She was called the seraphic doctor, is that true?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think when we talk, use that term about Teresa. You see it in the beginning of our new constitutions, ah um the term ah seraphic means in heaven, when they used to talk about the different choirs of angels. Then the ones that were closest to God, and the ones that were most on fire, were the seraphims. So, when you think of Teresa, she was so on fire with the love of God. And spread this fire to us. That's what I mean when we're talking about her is our seraphic holy mother. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mr. Kotarski: That's wonderful. That's great. Following on I have so many streams of thought here. Just a couple...she, is it fair to say experienced contemplation, because I want to talk about that.

Fr. Griffin: Oh, yes, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: And then I want to give a word of...

Fr. Griffin: She ah, she experiences, and in the autobiography you talk about the four waters of prayer. That would be up to...

Mr. Kotarski: (? 419 inaudible) understand Father, can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Fr. Griffin: Well, when she wrote her autobiography, she wrote this because she was commanded to do this by her Confessors. So it's not no, she sat down and thought this would be a best seller or anything like that. No, she was commanded to do this by her Confessors, and especially as she was getting in ah to these mystical stages. And then the question is she imagining these things? Is she making all this up? And so that's where she was so blest to have those great Dominican Confessors. And some of them were the greatest, the greatest theologians of that age, and they were able to help her. And to convince her that she wasn't deceiving herself, but what she was doing was ah whereas she was being led by God into these deeper ways. And she mentions ah, there, certain things you can't put into words, certain experiences are just ah, just too deep for words. But for instance she went to that one Dominican Confessor that time, and ah, she told this Dominican about our Lord appearing to her. And the Dominican said to her "What kind of eyes, what color were her eyes?" No, no, no, she says "it's not like that. It's not like that." "Well, how tall was he?" And no." he said, "Now wait a minute Teresa." He said "Either, when you see someone he has to be a certain height." "No, no, no, no, no, she says, entirely different our Lord was communicating this to me." And then he was able to understand this wasn't her imagination..but this really and truly was, and so she had the approval of the first Dominican, Fr. Pedro (? Ebunyeff ? sp) ah, and she um, and she saw him later, she saw him later go to heaven, directly to heaven. She tells us that one of the few people she saw go directly to heaven. And in the beginning ah, he was very, very, good. And one place in the autobiography she prays to our Lord and she wants him to be better. So she says to our Lord "Wouldn't he make a wonderful friend for us, if we could sanctify him." (Laughter)

Mr. Kotarski: (Laughter) That's a beautiful thought.

Fr. Griffin: Yes, well that's the way.

Mr. Kotarski: Intimate.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, well, this is she's Teresa of Jesus. And this is the way she spoke to our Lord. And he did um ah after that, he improved rapidly and she actually saw him go straight to heaven.

Mr. Kotarski: (? 452 inaudible).

Fr. Griffin: And then ah, another one that she saw go straight to heaven was ah St. Peter of (? 454 El Cantra sp?), the Franciscan. And as I said when you go into St. Peters, where the holy water fountain is on the right, up there you'll see St. Teresa, ad I kiddingly say "Right across there you'll see one of her boyfriends." Laughter.

Mr. Kotarski: Laughter.

Fr. Griffin: (? 457 inaudible St. Peter El Cantra (? sp).

Mr. Kotarski: Ah.

Fr. Griffin: So he's the Foundress of the group of Franciscans so that's why he's at St. Peters. So that's why he helped her to be able to Found the Monastery of Avila. The Bishop at first wasn't going to give her permission to found this monastery. Ah, people in the city were up in arms. They said "That the last thing we need is another convent, if people are with poverty we can't even support these people." But fortunately St. Peter (? 463 El Cantra) got to town the day before and the Bishop had such high esteem for him, with his, with his, because of his good graces, ah that helped us out (? 464 inaudible) the Order. So, it's kind...I think it's very, very, fitting that they're both in St. Peter's looking across at one another. But the, no Peter of Cantra, she saw him go directly to heaven. And then after, after he goes directly to heaven, later he appears to her, and he helps her...even after his death. (Laughter)

Mr. Kotarski: In what way, can you elaborate on that? Tell us a little bit about that.

Fr. Griffin: Well, when he thought she wasn't following everything our Lord wanted to ummm, then he would appear and tell her she should...it wasn't out of laxity, but sometimes you know, you're afraid to do certain things because of people around you and all that sort of thing. So he encouraged her, and one time he even scolded her for not following all his directions...umm, and of course she has extra love for him that ah...sometimes you need the encouragement that's what I think you see there. It's not that you ever wanted to go against the Lord but you need the encouragement of certain people. So with certain people around you're a different person.

Mr. Kotarski: Meaning St. Peter of El Cantra, a Franciscan...

Fr. Griffin: Yes.

Mr. Kotarski: ...is encouraging St. Teresa of Avila...

Fr. Griffin: Oh, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: ...of the Carmelites?

Fr. Griffin: Oh yes, yes. Well he had been one of her spiritual directors. One of the great spiritual directors that ah, that she had. And he especially helped her for the spirit of poverty in the Order.

Mr. Kotarski: Do you think that that principal is still true today. That we need to encourage one another?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, we need, we need to encourage one another, and if you've got the right person to encourage you that makes all the difference. You'll listen to some people and ummm some people you'll have a level of ten, for another it'll be twenty, and you know it makes a great deal of...like I said with Fr. Otillio, I needed him for the kind of encouragement that ah, just being able to talk to him. And knowing, bouncing ideas off him and talking about Teresa, which we both enjoyed so very, very, much. Then I knew I was on the right track. I keep saying um with certain talents that people have. I say you don't got it, until the right person tells you, "You've got it." When the right person tells you you've got it, then you know you've got it. But otherwise ah, you know, your always doubts, and always something. But as I said, I think that's what helped me so much with Fr. Otillio at night.

Remember when Teresa became a doctor of the church? Remember I wrote an article of spiritual life, and I went and gave a talk about that to our sisters, Carmelite Sisters in Loretta, Pennsylvania, and I was singing all the praises of Teresa that I could possibly do (? 494 partially inaudible/without a doctorate ?) and I don't know who the sister was that came up to me afterwards. She says St. Teresa must have something very special in mind for you. The way you talk she has something special in mind for you. So I ah was very happy to hear, I don't remember who the person was, but ah who the sister was but ah then a couple days later I was taking care of my Third Order in Baltimore, and so I used the same talk because she was becoming a doctor, I think it was on the actual day that she did become a doctor of the church. And I gave it there, and I'll never forget. Again, I don't remember who the person was. And some lady came up to me in the group and she said how much she enjoyed that talk and she said to me, she said "You know Father, you're a different man when you're talking about Teresa of Avila. You're an entirely different man. And so I ah, you know you need someone to um know that it went over. That's what she was saying.

Mr. Kotarski: That makes a difference.

Fr. Griffin: Oh, it makes a difference. In any person somewhere along the line you've got to know you've got something. I didn't mean that I was the greatest scholar of Teresa at all times, but I did know as I say, from Fr. Otillio, what he did for me...his encouragement. There are different ways you know you've 'got something'. And you're sure you've got it. And ah you can talk to many other people and they can give you a talk on this saint or that saint, but you don't feel they got it...I mean you don't walk away a changed man or anything like that. But I think that's ah what...well as I say Fr. Otillio, he wrote a book on St. Teresa, and he gave me a copy and he said To Dear Father Michael, great lover of Our Holy Mother. And ah the fact that that came from him, meant...

Mr. Kotarski: Meant. Go ahead.

Fr. Griffin: Well that meant so very, very, much to me. And then later for the doctorate they wanted an article in English in the Teresian Magazine in Rome about St. Teresa. And so I was the one that was chosen to do it and Fr. Otillio was over there in Rome at the time, and he wrote back to me, and he congratulated me on the article and he said this was a substantive contribution to St. Teresa. This was a substantive, and as I say, we wouldn't tell some, let's say Lithuanian who wrote a little ditty on Shakespeare...we wouldn't say that was a substantive contribution unless we really thought so. So since he was a Spaniard, and since he was a great scholar himself in St. Teresa, no...that gave me a great deal of encouragement. You know you've gotta know you're not ah...you know, I mean something is happening God isn't good to you.

Mr. Kotarski: We don't live in a vacumn at all.

Fr. Griffin: Oh no, no, we need this kind of encouragement. But you gotta get it from the right person. Now, not everybody can say, everybody can go over and say "Hey, you're doing terrific." No, well that doesn't mean an awful lot. It's good, I mean it's good as far as it goes but if they are what we would call significant people, I mean someone significant person tells you this, oh that makes different...oh yeah.

Mr. Kotarski: Would you encourage the Secular Order members across the country who have the fires coming to them, to test if they have that? To pat the Friars on the back a little bit. Tell them that they appreciate them and test that.

Fr. Griffin: Well, they should always do that if they're getting things. I think the one giving the talks, if he gets feed back and this feed back um...is right on target. Otherwise we just say "Well you're great, and we like you, and we love you, and we don't want anyone else but you. But that's not really...that's nice, but as I say something very specific. Like when Fr. Otillio's, I said, because we were good friends and um as I said we talk for hours and um I can show you one of my copies of St. Teresa of Avila, that I underlined certain things I read, when I was a student here at Holy Hill. I was only in philosophy. I had nobody to talk to about this, but I do remember. There's certain things I underlined in red, and they still hold up. They still mean something to me...um...so, Teresa has always...Teresa's always been such a significant person in my life and when I came to the Order, I remember the night when I came to the Order, they put me in a room up on the fifth floor. I got here late. They put me in a room. And the only thing there was in the room was a copy of the Introduction to St. John of the Cross by Pere Bruno. So, I don't know why I thought this but ah I got in the room. I thought I was going to read that and I said to myself, I said, you know I don't want to be taught this life by a woman. I don't know where this came from. I didn't, ah I didn't nobody talked that way. Just one of those ideas that you get somewhere. I was nineteen years old. A hundred and nineteen pounds and I must have been feeling very strong and I thought...no I had to be taught by a man. So I read the St. John of the Cross, this introduction...oh this biography by Pere Bruno from Paris, and I enjoyed it. But then a couple months later I found out about St. Teresa's great love for St. Joseph, and that's what did it.

Mr. Kotarski: We're going to pick this up on side two of our tape and we're going to talk about that and we're going to talk about contemplation, and can you love God without contemplation? Thank you, and turn to side two to follow the rest of this taped conversation.

Fr. Griffin: Okay, okay.

Mr. Kotarski: Terry.

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Tape 101 B - Side Two - Fr. Michael D. Griffin

Mr. Kotarski: We're on Side Two. Tell us about St. Joseph and Teresa.

Fr. Griffin: Well, I guess when I ah, six months later I got to Brookline and I began to read St. Teresa, her (? 031 inaudible) and I got to Chapter Six, and Chapter Six is where she tells about this devotion to St. Joseph. And so when I heard about this great devotion that she had to St. Joseph well that what sealed the bargain. And she knows it and I know it. That's what, that's what did it. In my life, of course St. Joseph was very important because ah, when I was a little boy I was baptized in St. Anne's Parish in Philadelphia, and on the day of my baptism my mother had me placed on the altar of St. Joseph and dedicated to him. And she died about a year later. I never, I don't have any other memories of her except people always in the family, they all loved her very much, and said how pretty she was, and that she had me dedicated to St. Joseph. So that's been a big, big, part of my life. Um, because of her. It's because of her doing.

Mr. Kotarski: Have you written anything that as a result of the fruit of that relationship with you and Teresa. What have you done for Teresa?

Fr. Griffin: Well, the only thing I've been able to do for Teresa was this little book "Lingering With My Lord". This is the after communion experiences of St. Teresa. I did my own translating of her Spanish. And I got this published, oh I don't know over twenty some years ago whenever I got this published. And so I had to do something for Teresa. I guess the first time was 1984.

Mr. Kotarski: I...we're going to do a whole tape on this one here, but I heard and I think I sold a whole box of your books at the Congress. Actually I didn't, it was Millie Hendrick, John St. Joseph and Lu Anthony over there in Flint, Michigan. I think that there was something about St. Joseph and the statute downstairs that your picture was on. Is there something about that that you did?

Fr. Griffin: Well, the statute down here is when I got back to Holy Hill in '93. So I go down there every day for about a hour to bless the articles of people. And of course he was always looking at me, and I was always looking at him and I thought if we got a book out, we'd have to have him on the cover. So that's why he's on the cover.

Mr. Kotarski: That's the most recent effort that you've done. Is that not true?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, no, that's the original cover that we had. The original book I did, not an original, but original article that I did on St. Joseph and that was done during the council somewhere, about '64, '65, and ah it just came about um because I was a member of the...um I mean I was a kind of had this great love of St. Joseph and ah a Dominican, when I was a member of the Catholic Theological Society of America. A Dominican had a plan that he was going to take care of all the Newman Clubs in the country. All the different universities. We were going to solve all their problems once and for all. So, he asked us as members if we'd contribute articles, ah you know to this project of his. So I looked down the list and I saw the one of St. Joseph's so I decided I would take the one of St. Joseph. And so I did a lot of work on it, worked a couple months, and finally just when I was going to send it back to him, I got another letter from him saying "We're out of funds. We can't publish any of these things." So, what do you do? You have this manuscript, did all this work, ah so I for some reason I just thought well, I'll send it up to the Oratory in St. Joseph in Montreal, that's what I'll do. Maybe they could keep that on file. So they published it in their magazine (? 105 inaudible) the workings of the notebooks of St. Joseph. So that's when it was first published. And then ah, when it was all done, about twenty-five years later, and that was about, just before we came out with this book on St. Joseph. Then, they put this in booklet form up there, ah and ah, so then they put a nice cover on it and all. So, once I saw that I thought well, we could do more for St. Joseph, so that's how that ah really came about. So that was the work of...was over a period of twenty-five years or something like that.

Mr. Kotarski: And it's now in one book form and there's a compilation of different ah...

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, they're other, they're other books in there. The Papal (? 118 inaudible) of Pope John Paul II, is in there. Ah one of the articles of Fr. (? 119 Goutiay sp?) from ah, from uh the Oratory in Montreal. Ah, I translated his article from the French. And there are other different ah, different articles. We thought would be a nice compilation of articles of his. But ah, and I don't think I'll be able to add very, very, much in this. I'd like to see more done for St. Joseph but ah, we'll just have to sort of wait until certain things happen, that's all ah.

Mr. Kotarski: Regarding St. Joseph I think it's very topical. We have the right down to the family. What was so attractive about St. Joseph to you, and to Teresa of Avila?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think ah...see again with Teresa, remember that she is so devoted to the humanity of Christ. So therefore He's not some (? 134 theoryial sp?) person or anything like that. No, she was able to intuit I think how dear he was to Mary, and how important he was to Christ. That's what she says. She says in fact she says in Chapter Six, how can we ever think of all that St. Joseph did for Mary and the Child and not be eternally grateful to him? So when she's thinking of him, know she's aware that he has a father who had (? 143 inaudible) the child in a special way. She's aware of that. She doesn't spell it out, but also she's aware that he is the husband of Mary. I noticed in...later people's talks when the Pope a couple of weeks ago, made these Cardinals, now again, he's using those words. He's calling Mary, the wife of the saint. Doesn't use the word spouse, and that's what I find unfortunate that many people use the word spouse, and that's kind of a vague term. And ah, but from the very, very, beginning of the history of (? 155 inaudible) St. Joseph, they were also very, very, careful about writing him. Didn't write about him for centuries really much because they were afraid of making him the natural father of Our Lord. His Father is God the Father. And ah they didn't want to interfere with the virginity of Mary. Want this compromised in any way. And so for years they say very, very, little about him, and as I say the Pope in his (? 163 inaudible) he'll say that in modern times the one who was largely responsible for veneration to St. Teresa of Avila. He mentions that explicitly there.

Mr. Kotarski: Which Pope is that?

Fr. Griffin: This is Pope John Paul the II. In this, in his encyclical, um. The Guardian of the Redeemer, so he puts this in there. But he limits it though, and it's kind of awkward he huh?

Mr. Kotarski: (? 169 inaudible)?

Fr. Griffin: Yes, okay. You're just what I need um. So he limits that to Western christianity, and that's because you have all the Eastern right people...um...ah they ah didn't do very much writing about this. They were very careful about this, and so you can see that it's almost wedged in there. But you can see when they come out with the encyclical that has to go through all kinds of commissions and committees, and all these different things. So, I think some people said be careful...I imagine ah, in time things will happen. But during the council we were very, very, friendly. We were very, very pleased with Pope John the Twenty-Third. Pope John the Twenty Third, ah during the council he ah on his own. Now, this is not with him asking everybody to discuss this thing...ah...he came out and he said that on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, which would have been three or four weeks after that, then the name of Joseph is to be included in the First Canon of the Mass next to Mary his wife, and before St. Peter and Paul and all the others. You understand.

Mr. Kotarski: Primacy in time and place?

Fr. Griffin: Huh?

Mr. Kotarski: That gives him primacy in time and place?

Fr. Griffin: Well, he is..he...in other words, St. Joseph is part of the ah, eternal plan of God. The eternal plan of God was that Christ should come, become incarnate and that He should be born into a family, and of a family, so that when, when, when the angel appears to Mary she is already legally and validly married to Joseph. They weren't living together or anything like that. No, they wouldn't live together for months after that. But ah, Saint...the Christ child is the fruit of his marriage.

Mr. Kotarski: That's a very powerful concept, and Teresa understood it.

Fr. Griffin: Well I ah, Teresa doesn't write about it but, ah I think ah, she would have fully understood this. No she knew that all he did, and how dear he was to the Christ child. I don't think she would have figured all that out, that part about the marriage and all. But ah really that's what happened ah, that ah Jesus is the fruit of his marriage. The child is conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, that's true. St. Joseph is not the...but he is a virginal father. A father in a very, very special way. He is the spouse of Mary. The...huh?

Mr. Kotarski: The husband.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, he's the husband, he's the husband, ah very definitely. Huh?

A Gentleman: I never really understood how Joseph and Mary were betrothed and then later, a year later they're supposed to be married?

Fr. Griffin: Well, see in those days the Jewish custom was, remember you're in a patriarchal society. So on one ceremony they would be legally and validly married but they weren't allowed to live together for a number of ah, a number of months. Well, here in a patriarchal society you have to promise so many sheep, you have to promise so much whatever, all these different things had to be taken care of. So that was the custom that they had. So when Mary and Joseph, ah, if you want to use that word were betrothed, it really was a legally and validly binding, and the Pope mentions that in the encyclical. He mentions it very, very clearly.

Mr. Kotarski: The name of that encyclical where he mentions that is again?

Fr. Griffin: It's the Guardian of the Redeemer. The Guardian of the Redeemer. Yes, that there.

Mr. Kotarski: Do you cite that in your recent book on St. Joseph?

Fr. Griffin: Well, we have his whole encyclical there. The whole encyclical, they'll be in the...the whole encyclical will be included there. And, but as I say Teresa would have understood that, and ah, it's interesting. About Chapter 36 in the autobiography where ah Our Lady and St. Joseph appear to Mary. And Teresa tells how "Our Lady came towards her and took my hands into her hands, and she thanked Teresa for all he did for St. Joseph."

Mr. Kotarski: She, let me make sure that I understand that. Our Lady thanked Teresa of Avila, St. Teresa of Avila for all that Teresa of Avila did for St. Joseph?

Fr. Griffin: For St. Joseph, yes, yes, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: What are the things that Teresa did for St. Joseph. Can you?

Fr. Griffin: Well, she dedicated the first monastery to St. Joseph. She spread this devotion and ah...she is one of the real apostles of the devotion to St. Joseph. She has the assurance of heaven, that um, she really and truly loves St. Joseph and did a great deal for him.

Mr. Kotarski: She was on the right track?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, she...she knew she was on the right track. Yeah she knew that, yeah.

A Gentleman: So this devotion to St. Joseph would be a Carmelite devotion, I mean a Carmelite?

Fr. Griffin: It's Carmelite...but no, no, this is a devotion to the church but it came very, very, slowly, and the big obstacles in the beginning they said very little about Joseph. They um, and one of the greatest proofs of course, is that Mary in Luke's gospel, Luke knows the story, that the angel appeared to Mary and that's how she ah, the child was conceived. But it's Mary who says to Christ, when He went to the temple when He was twelve years old...she said "Your father and I have been seeking you with sorrow." She called St. Joseph "your father". " Your father and I." This is a biblical quotation.

Mr. Kotarski: Powerful imagery.

Fr. Griffin: Oh, yes, it's a powerful fact. It's not just an image. It's a real fact, so Our Lady herself ah, is the one that Luke quotes as the saying that. And so, she really, ah, and Teresa realized how much she did for Mary and the Child and she said "I don't know how I'll never think of all he did, and not be eternally grateful to him." Yeah. Yes, knowing that he is the one, he is the man nearest and dearest to Christ, nearest and dearest to Mary. There's no question...

Mr. Kotarski: That's powerful. Can you state that one more time? Let's unbundle that.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah.

Mr. Kotarski: He's the man that, St. Joseph is the man that's what?

Fr. Griffin: I'd say he is the one who is nearest and dearest to Christ and to Mary, so that family. We have to keep the family together. That's what I keep telling people. Keep them together. Ah, my problem, I think a lot of people have the problem, they have this Madonna and Child complex. So they are very, very, devoted to Mary. Very, very devoted to Mary and think that's she's the mother, but St. Joseph gets left out. Teresa doesn't leave him out. No, no. She doesn't leave him out at all, ah but that's very, very, common and ah again it's not understanding that that was a legally and validly binding marriage. They think that ah, they're afraid about the virginity part that's what they are. So, so they think...well St. Joseph, in fact some of the old pictures you'd find him...he's holding a lantern in a stable when the Christ child is born. He holds this lantern...and ah, but it's not the father, and so ah, imagine our Lord lived for thirty some years with Joseph, with Mary and Joseph. You know He is so...

Mr. Kotarski: He spent more time with Joseph and Mary. Obviously Mary and Joseph than he did with the apostles. Is that not true?

Fr. Griffin: Oh yes, yes. He only knew the apostles for the three years. Yes, yes. Now, St. Joseph is more important ah as I say, because he is part of the incarnation. In other words the Son of the Heavenly Father was becoming carnate in a marriage and be born of the marriage. Otherwise, Mary could have been stoned. She didn't have a husband I mean, she could be accused of adultery and in those kind of laws, she would have, she could have been stoned. So, he protects also this protects her honor and also the honor of Christ. They would have thrown this up to Him you were an illegitimate child. Well, this would have been thrown up if this had been the fact so St. Joseph plays that all important role. This is God's eternal plan ah, to safeguard the holiness of Christ and Mary.

A Gentleman: Father, I am one of those people that I have a great love for the Holy Mother, she's my Mother, and the child Jesus. But I'm guilty of what you're saying that I virtually ignored St. Joseph. Now how can I develop this...this?

Fr. Griffin: Well, again in reflecting, and I think this is a very, very, common thing. Um, say very, very, developed people you meet and you can tell the way they talk about Mary, Joseph's not included. You have to keep that family together. This is one unit. This is God's eternal plan for the salvation of this human race that ah the second person of the Blessed Trinity become incarnate. But in a family and of a family. And so it's taken many, many, years. In fact it's about the time of St. Teresa where you would get a face for St. Joseph in the universal church, it doesn't come till about the 16th century. But the big thing in the beginning, of course it was always protecting the Divine Fatherhood that Christ is the Son of the Heavenly Father, and protecting the virginity of Mary. That was always the great concern in the early centuries. And so Teresa, ah no Teresa is she ah, this is from her own. This way God led her. This is from her own prayers and all, and her devotion to the humanity of Christ. As I say, reflecting on the humanity of Christ, then you would see that He would need this. But otherwise, ah many people as I say, and very, very, good people and so many good people, they think well St. Joseph is very nice and all but um, but this is the important thing.

Mr. Kotarski: Mary.

Fr. Griffin: And the Child.

Mr. Kotarski: Did Teresa of Avila consider and understand that and the follow up is did Teresa of Avila consider Joseph, St. Joseph a man of prayer?

Fr. Griffin: Oh, yes. She ah considers him. She talks about him in Chapter Six of her autobiography, yes, that he is the patron of prayer. And she thinks...well, he lives so closely with Christ and with Mary, ah that no one would have known him better. and his whole life was just a life of prayer.

Mr. Kotarski: The patron saint of prayer, is that what you meant?

Fr. Griffin: Well you could put it that way. Both Mary and Joseph of course would be, but she sees his closeness. Ah Joseph's closeness to Christ and to Mary, and uh...um she calls him (? 333 Mi Padre e' Senore sp?). He's my father and my Lord. That's what she calls St. Joseph (? 336 mi padre, mi padre ? inaudible/spelling) yes. Well, she considers him to be her father, yes.

Mr. Kotarski: She calls him her father and her lord? Is that...

Fr. Griffin: And her lord, master, master, so and she says in the autobiography. You know when he lived on earth St. Joseph was able to give our Lord commands. And He followed them all. And she said in Heaven, he is still able to do the same thing. Whatever he commands. That's the way, Teresa thought. That was her relationship with St. Joseph. Ah...ah.

Mr. Kotarski: Did she call him St. Joseph a master of prayer?

Fr. Griffin: Well, she says that anyone who is having trouble in prayer, if you take him to be your father, you'll never go astray in the ways of prayer.

Mr. Kotarski: Can you tell us a little more about that. Unbundle that for us. What does she mean when she says that?

Fr. Griffin: Well, she thinks that ah, as I say, he ah knew Christ so well, being that closely related to them, and Mary so well that if we take him as our patron, that we'll never go astray and...

Mr. Kotarski: That your prayer life will most assuredly be improved.

Fr. Griffin: Yeah, so we will always be safe. And would have to be, what she's saying there, again we come back to the humanity of Christ. It will be (? 353 inaudible) on the humanity of Christ. It won't be something vague, Christ and the Lord. And this is one of the things I find difficult in the second (? 356 inaudible) where all these sit comm...the sit comm mentality as I call it. I've had some people you know come, and they say, ah talk to you a little while. Well, he says "I better get up to this shrine. I better talk to the big guy up there. I want to talk to the big guy up there and tell Him what I..." Yeah but He's the old, Holy God. He is the creator of heaven and earth. You couldn't take a step without Him. You couldn't take a breath without Him. This big guy up there ah...but this is all secular talk. This is not...and...it's in a lot of sit comms and it comes up so often. I don't. Not that I watch these sit comms, but it's that of mentality, a very secular approach. Or these ideas that people have of Christ. Oh, he wants us all to be happy. He doesn't worry about a lot of things. Oh, as long as your happy that's all He wants. He wants people to be happy.

I had a case where a lady came to me, and ah, she had cancer. She was going to go to the hospital the next day for cancer. And so, she had been married before, and he had been married before, and somewhere down south they met a priest, and she told him she was worried about this, and uh..."Oh, my Lord doesn't worry about these things. He wants you to be happy." So he performed some kind of a ceremony for them. Without any annulment or anything like that. And (? 376 inaudible) was very worried because she was going to the hospital the next day. And so what I did immediately was ah to get in charge of the...one of the Marriage Tribunal, the Monseigneur in charge of the Marriage Tribunal. I (? 377 inaudible) you go to see him. And you want to see him and make sure. In other words it's not a question of my word against somebodies place down south or anything like that, but she needed assurance um that in you know, because she has cancer, and so she knows the days may be numbered. And ah so, so it's that as I say in the second rise world you get so much of this stuff going on. And ah, many of the things you don't know whose going to back it up or be against the Pope for saying this or that, or the other thing. But as the Pope said "You know very often, in modern life, many of the things that are happening in modern life the church condemns them." But he said "In the name of the gospel." He doesn't say just that ah, something that I don't like. Or that ah, something my Cardinals don't like. No, he said "In the name of the Gospel."

Mr. Kotarski: That's powerful.

Fr. Griffin: Oh, it's very, very, powerful, and that's exactly what he is to do. Ah, people will say "Oh, this Pope, he came from the Iron Curtain country. They don't know (? 392 inaudible) world. No, a lot of...what he's doing is what folks have always done when they denounce things ah, it's in the name of the gospel because that's contrary to Christ and to His divine teachings and that's (? 395 inaudible). And that's very important. It's not just his personal opinion, and I find myself as a priest if someone comes to me and said, "Well, Father, so and so said not to worry about this." I'd say "Well, listen, it's not my word against Fr. So and So's word. Look at the catechism. This is the approval of the church. Let's go there to be authority of the church. It's not just my word for it." Ah...no that's the way this has to be handled and in modern life it's the idea, somewhat. They ah...they want everybody to be loved. We all have to be loved today. We have to be popular. And we don't want anyone saying "Oh Father Michael is too strict, or anything like that." No, no, I have to be what God wants me to be...and this is one priest that said recently "Make sure us priests, we have to be truth tellers. Everywhere you go be a truth teller. Tell what's in the gospel. What's in the teachings. Tell this truth to the people." It's not just my personal opinions and ah.

Mr. Kotarski: And truth can't be reconciled with error, and evil can't be reconciled with good. True?

Fr. Griffin: No, no, no, no...it can't. No these things are incompatible. They don't go together. They don't go together at all. Truth, ah truth, you cannot compromise on truth. And ah, another thing of course, you can't compromise that people say well, people are doing a lot of things that are ah, but they don't mean anything by...they don't mean any harm by this. No. They're the laws of God. If you're violating the laws of God, the way you judge that is not by their intention it's by what they do. Now, the intention made if there's ignorance and all it may diminish the whole thing. But it's what you do. That's the primary way of judging morality.

If I go in to a coffee story and ask for a cup of coffee. I asked for a cup of coffee and nothing else. Now, I may be getting this for someone else. What I did was buy a cup of coffee. That's the first law of morality. What did you do? So if ah someone married out of the church. That's what you did. You say well, maybe you were in ignorance, maybe you listened to people say "Don't worry about it, and all this I don't know." It's what you do. This is against the gospel what you did there. And so, I taught (? 425 inaudible) for many years. No thats the way you judge the morality of anything. It's by the object. What did you do? Now, the intention is something secondary. Because what you do, because what you do ah...because what you do there is a built in intention. I bought a cup of coffee. It's built in there. That I gave this guy fifty cents...ah, I was willing to give fifty cents. It was built right in that I wanted a cup of coffee. I didn't want a cup of tea. I didn't want hot chocolate or anything like that. It's built in. Now why did I do it? There can be secondary reasons, that I bought it for this person, or it may be that I owed a person a cup of coffee. Whatever, these are other reasons. But what I did when I put that fifty cents down. That's the way you judge morality of everything. So if something, someone goes to communion when they're not supposed to...we judge what they did. And it's very hard, well people say "Well, I didn't mean this or I didn't." Well, maybe they didn't. That may excuse them I mean, temporarily I might say out of ignorance. But basically what you did is what we judge by what you do.

Mr. Kotarski: Using that objective what you did and what you did not and applying it over to the spiritual life in the area of prayer. Let's assume that I do contemplate. Tell me about the royal role of prayer in contemplation and then we want to talk about can I have union and love with God, without contemplation, because not all people contemplate I understand.

Fr. Griffin: Well, you see ah contemplation is ah, is ah, ah is a form of prayer. In the gospel it doesn't say that if you pray you're going to be a contemplative. That may have different terminology. That terminology may apply to different things. In the gospel we're told to pray. And when Teresa is telling us to pray she means to pray to Christ. She is Teresa of Jesus, and that is the way she was taught to pray. That was the way she always prays. That's the way she teaches other people how to pray is ah, to contemplate, to think of Christ in his humanity. Ah really keeping Christ company in prayers that's what Teresa, it's the companionship with Christ, that's what she does. Ah, and now if God raises you to contemplation or to various stages, that may be something else. She really describes the range of experiences that she had in prayer. That's what she does in The Four Waters, and again in The Interior Castle. She'll go through a whole range of experiences the way the Lord led her. But she doesn't say everybody's going to go through all those different stages.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, related to that. Let's assume that I cannot contemplate and I believe Teresa says that not all people are given the ability to contemplate. Is that true? Let's start with that premise, is that true?

Fr. Griffin: Well, Teresa would say basically that you're in prayer. We go to Christ, and those various stages that she describes...not every soul is going to go through those. Not everybody is going to go through all those different things, or in that particular way. And ah, we're all different but she is telling us for her, you're always successful in prayer if you keep Christ company, if that's what you do, in His words.

Mr. Kotarski: Okay. A question here. You keep Christ company in His words. My question is is that I can have union with God, without contemplation? Can I become a saint without contemplation?

Fr. Griffin: Well if people, yes. Ah, as I say contemplation may have a range of meanings for the different saints. And ah so, if you are...union with God comes from growing in love with God. As you grow in love, that's how you become perfect. Now, whether you go through the kind of experiences that she had or some other saints had, that might be another thing. But our Lord says "That if you love me and keep my word, then I will live in you, and my Father will also live in you." That's one of these gospels of John that we have very, very, recently. So that's ah, that's what Teresa would um...but she naturally being the foundress of a religious order and having so many charisms ah, well then she could still hold range of experiences. Not everybody's going to get through all those. And sometimes people try to put themselves through those. No, you can't do anything like that. You can't force yourself into this or that. No, that has to be a gift of God.

Mr. Kotarski: Well, knowing that...take me through. I'm going to do an hour of adoration, and a lot of our Carmelites in the Flint area will do an hour of adoration. And, take me through. How, how can I spend that hour with Our Lord, and know that I am in prayer?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think Teresa would have you read something from the gospels. Have you read, reflect on that. First of all you pray as to the light of the Holy Spirit, and you start, ah, um reflecting on various scenes in the gospel. Various words of Our Lord. Keeping Him company. And of course you pray for the needs of the church. You'll be praying for the needs of the church. The needs of others, ah this is what Teresa would have us be doing. As I say, this is not a mathematical thing. Ah, people like to get a formula for this whole thing. No, no. This is all up to God. It's up to God. If we're seeking, if we're seeking the Lord than Teresa said "How much more is He seeking us?"

Mr. Kotarski: Let me add on to that, and ask you some questions that I've been asked? If I'm by myself, no one else is around, can I sing to the Lord and when I'm doing adoration? And can I also sing to Him when I'm home in my prayer time, reading the bible, looking at His picture?

Fr. Griffin: Well we do this in the church. Let's say the liturgy, the psalms and things like that ah, this is a very, very, common thing, and so no, no, it can be done in song. that's how good a singer you are too.

Mr. Kotarski: (? 496 inaudible).

Fr. Griffin: Augustine said "He who sings well, prays doubly." (? 499 inaudible). That's the famous one from Augustine.

Mr. Kotarski: Alright. That question was for Lydia, because Lydia has asked me that question about singing. Now Lydia can sing well, I can't sing well, but sometimes I can get excited and start to sing to God.

Fr. Griffin: (? 502 inaudible) you know you're not being auditioned for the Met or anything like that, no. No, it's what comes out of your heart, you're expressing the heart. The heart expands when you're...and the end of the church. That's what the music is all about. Our hearts are supposed to expand...and that's very, very, important. So Augustine is right, if you sing well, he doesn't mean the standards of the Met. No, he means if you're really...ya, ya...you're putting you heart in the song, yes. (Laughter).

Mr. Kotarski: Now, generally can you comment if a soul is troubled and concerned about their prayer and frightened that maybe they are not serving Our Lord. What kind of words do you have for that soul, that's worried, that's concerned that they're not serving God well enough, and their concerned about their prayer life. But it's a soul that is intent on serving God and works very hard at it. Tell us about that?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think there it would be very, very, important to pray to the Holy Spirit, and ask the Holy Spirit of God to lead me, and guide me in prayer, and guide my life. Not only, not only, not just in those times but that my whole life would be ah, that's what I would tell people. We have the Feast of Pentecost coming up, ah, oh um, ah that's such a very, very, important thing, yes. And of course with Teresa also, since you're keeping Christ company. I think the more you know about the various mysteries of the life of Christ, that that's important too. That you know what these mysteries are and that you understand them. I think a lot of people say the rosary, all these (? 519 inaudible) but they don't understand what those mysteries are about. That's important that you gradually come, and you kind of systematically make sure that you know what some of those mysteries are about. That's what you're praying for, that's what you're praying, that's what your glorifying God, ah for these various mysteries. And people should have some insight and understanding in those things and ah...

Mr. Kotarski: Alright, I've got a question here and this is for some of the people that I know that work in the shops at Flint. And I think Lu Anthony knows some of these people. They'll work forty or fifty, sixty hours a week. They are raising a family. They'll go to do an hour of adoration either every other day or once a week. So they're intent on serving God. But occasionally they'll fall asleep. In Flint we call it entering the Ninth Mansion.

Fr. Griffin: (? 528 inaudible) good.

Mr. Kotarski: Is that something to be, they don't want to.

Fr. Griffin: Well, that's just human weakness that people working out...I wouldn't worry about that. Now, the intention you intended to do this for God. You intended to give Him this hour. Well, if that happens I wouldn't worry about that. But ah, I think it's different if maybe sometimes we could switch the hours, or change the hours. There are different things that may help out there a little bit. But I wouldn't have them worry about that.

A Gentleman: What if you haven't the time to maybe to make the full hour. Could you do like fifteen, twenty minutes or a half an hour a day?

Fr. Griffin: Well, if you don't have the time for the full hour and you can honestly say to the Lord "You know Lord, you know I'd like to give this whole hour, but I'm just not able to do this. I have this commitment, that commitment...ya. No question, yes. I think the main thing becomes a life of prayer. That's what Teresa is so very good at ah it's a whole life of prayer. Which is keeping Christ company throughout your whole life because it's through Christ the (? 540 inaudible) we go to the Heavenly Father and there was ah, and this is what Teresa would ah, this is what she is looking for, and so she got busy at times too, you know, that ummmm I'm sure she's going around all over Spain founding these monasteries, getting supplies for the sisters. Getting all these different things, I'm sure sometimes she had more time and other times she had less time than she would like to have had. But the main thing though her hearts with Him. That's the big thing.

Mr. Kotarski: What does that, what does that mean, her heart is with Him? Tell me a little bit about that. What do you think she meant by that?

Fr. Griffin: Well, I think what Our Lord..."If you seek me." that's what the Lord is telling us in the gospels. "If you're seeking me," you're seeking Him, you're seeking His love, then you're going to find Him and you're going to find the Heavenly Father too.

Mr. Kotarski: You mentioned a life of prayer. Living a life of prayer. Is that a Carmelite goal?

Fr. Griffin: Well, that's ah, that's the goal, that has to be the goal of every christian. But this was something that's especially accentuated in the teachings of Teresa, our Foundress.

Mr. Kotarski: How do I do that?

Fr. Griffin: Well again, as I say, you get back to this keeping Christ company. And I think we know when we're living for Him. And we really want to live for Him. Now that would also apply to let's say people married. Well, they have to take care of their family. We don't want them to neglect these families. Ah, this, this is all part of God's calling and for those in the marriage state. But everybody's called really to give their life to God. You read this in John's gospel, especially at this time of the year, where we're reading from John. That's what he's emphasizing, that's what he's accentuating.

Mr. Kotarski: Living this life of prayer can be lived in a family, where they're cooking, and raising three or four children in the kitchen?

Fr. Griffin: Well, sometimes ah, St. Teresa has that famous expression 'God walks among the pots and pans.'

Mr. Kotarski: Tell me a little bit more about that. You, you're coming up with all of these things. You're getting way ahead of me here. Go ahead, tell me about that. Good.

Fr. Griffin: That's what ah, that's what she has that somewhere. Of course she has this gift of language, when she was made a doctor of the church Pope Paul VI said (? 565 Spanish?) This gift of language, so she comes up with these things. But, if you're working in the kitchen I mean God's walking amongst the pots and pans. You can find Him there too. But ah, you know. (Tape ended here).